What drew our attention to him was his e-mail to us, complaining about scam mails being sent all over the world by some internet miscreants in Africa. He spoke about the inherent danger in such mails and how many Aricans would not be taken seriously in any civilised world again. We replied him and from there, the idea to interview him on his experience with Africans in his church was mooted. Pastor Paul Carley has displayed a great sense of Christianity and deep grasp of brotherhood. Though our focus is on Africa, but we cannot resist this wonderful preacher of the gospel whom we pray to meet someday. Excerpts from an interview conducted over the internet.

Tell us more about your background: birth, parentage and education.
I was born in 1959 to parents who were in the Pentecostal Movement and active in working for the church. I have one senior brother and two junior brothers, one senior and one junior sister.

The fact that we were ever born is a miracle, because when my parents were married first they tried unsuccessfully to have children, but the doctors said that my mothers womb was out of place and they would therefore never have children. But praise the Lord prayer for healing was made and now they have 6 children and 17 grand-children.  They also have two fine son-in laws and 4 beautiful daughters-in law, and all are believers and many are actively involved in ministry.

I was educated in Ireland and am a qualified Accountant and Financial Consultant. I use this to support my ministry as we are a small church who have just started. 

Tell us about yourself, family, wife, children and expectations.
I married my wife Bernadette 22 years ago, and we have two daughters Hannah and Elspeth and one son Benjamin. The girls are both training to be teachers and Benjamin is in secondary school and keen to be a professional rugby player, which he is good enough to do. The girls are both active in youth ministry.  Benjamin leads the worship in our church and even though he is only 17 the Lords anointing is clearly on him.

When were you called to the ministry? How did it happen?
My first recollection of the Holy Spirit moving with me was when I was 7. I attended a healing crusade which my father had organized for the church he was assisting at. Many people were prayed for and because I was a very weak child I was brought forward for prayer. I believed with all my heart that I was now well and from that time I began to grow strong. Now praise the Lord I enjoy good health. But most importantly that night I knew Jesus was calling me.

As with many children of church workers every week, I set out the chairs with my father and lit the fires, filled communion glasses and put out the hymn books. So I learnt what it meant to serve the Lord from a very young age. So I always knew that I would serve Him.

As I matured I worked with the youth in the church, and slowly the ministry opened up to me. When I was about 27 my father who was the pastor in a small house church fell ill with his heart. I rang the overseer to ask who they would send to take over and I remember his words “ Paul, this is what the Lord has been preparing you for”.

So that day I stepped up in faith and entered into ministry. I recall at that time preaching under a new anointing and knowing that the Lord was with me.

Was there any indication that you would end up a preacher of the gospel when you were growing up?

" In truth I think as I struggled through my teenage years, most people in the church felt that I would never make it to heaven..."

My parents encouraged all of us to put the things of God first and find His calling.  In truth I think as I struggled through my teenage years, most people in the church felt that I would never make it to heaven never mind ministry. But you know sometimes it is the ones who ask all the difficult questions of the pastors and elders that eventually make the true men and women of God. So do not despair with your children, keep praying and keep faithful and God will do the rest.

How did your family accept you as a preacher?
My wife and children are the main stay of all I do both as a minister and as a person. It is really difficult for wives and children to live with the constant interruptions to family life and also because they see the weaknesses of us who are the ministers. But I believe God gives a special grace to them so that the can also be part of the ministry. That is why it is important for church members to remember to not just thank the Pastor but to remember that his wife may have had to eat alone while he was attending your problem. 

Tell us the history of your church?
Five years ago I came into a period of personal revival, and I set about revisiting all the doctrines of the church in which I had grown up in. This was to ensure that everything I believed and everything I would therefore preach was pure and from God. This process exposed what was tradition and what was Biblical. When I was sure that I had a clear message I then began to pray “ Lord where should I be”. Many of us end up in places by bas choices and it is good to stop and seek new direction.

One of the things the Lord had laid on my heart was to start a church where I lived, so that I could walk among my neighbours as a witness. So two years ago we set out in faith to establish Celbridge Pentecostal Church. Pentecostal Churches in Ireland are not as large as in Africa, so it will surprise you that after two years we number around 43 people.

We are a mixed congregation with all nations welcome. This is a real joy to me because many of the newer churches here are African and not integrated. This I believe is not good because it will isolate the Africans from the Irish. At present we have Nigerians, Congolese ( from both Congos ) Cameroonians, and Irish. We are fully Pentecostal in expressions but teach our people the importance of living a life that is Holy and honorable to God.

What are your impressions of Africans before you got in contact with them in your church?
Most of my contact with Africans was via a church contact in Kenya , and I found them to be a well intentioned type of people. I had also traveled on holiday to Zimbabwe and South Africa where I found the attitude of the African to be friendly and warm.

What are your impressions of them when you met them in your church?
The first African who came was a quiet lady from Nigeria. A team from another church had come and posted leaflets all over our town, and on the Sunday she came. Then the next Sunday another family came and then for a while it went quiet. One Sunday morning as I was eating breakfast with my wife she asked “ how long do we keep trying to build”?. I was a bit cross but I knew she was being wise to ask the question.  I said “ oh we keep going till God says stop” . That Sunday as we began to worship the door kept on opening and each time a new African face  appeared.

I love when I meet new Africans because they are open to the Gospel and want to know the Lord. They are also very wise and I think they are becoming weary of the message that says “ God will make you rich” when what they want is reality.

At first we were all a bit too shy and conscious of our differences, but we are growing more confident each day. Also I believe that a Pastor is there to be an example to the flock not to beat them or dominate them but to love them and teach them. I know that as I am such an example I will earn the respect of the people not because I am called “ pastor” but because I am a pastor.

The great missionary people like Hudson Talyor, George Mueler and St Paul himself did not seek financial wealth, they gave even their very lives for the gospel.  Jesus said “ I have not even a place to lay my head”, He was buried in a borrowed tomb. Do you think I should deserve more than Christ my saviour? God forbid that we as a man of God should be possessed by a spirit of greed.

What do you think is responsible for Africa 's political and economic under development?
“Behold how pleasant and how good it is when brothers dwell together in unity, there I have commanded my blessing”. I know this is predominantly for the church, but where true democracy exists the people have a better life.  As an observer it seems that when the good men gain power they become as bad as the ones they have replaced. 

Some time ago in Ireland the political parties agreed that in all matters of an economic nature they would as best they could work together, and that the opposition party would support the government for the good of the country. This strategy laid the foundations for our strong economic growth, so that now we are one of the best in Europe .

If Africa is to escape from the cycle of  economic depression, someone needs to put Africa first and not try to make them selves and their friends rich.

Do you see Africans getting out of their political and economic problems?
I think when I see how successful Africans can be here in our society and in America then there is hope. But this will only happen if the underlying issues of corruption are dealt with.

What solutions would you prefer for African leaders?
The real solution is for all men to follow Christ. But on a secular level I think that if an African man or woman could stand up and say “ I do not have all the answers but I love my people” and some how let go of the pride that says “ I do not need your help”. Then the west will hear that person and pour in the resources to enable him or her to succeed. But the west must be able to see that they are serious about treating everyone equally.

Do you see Africans as too religious?
I think the devil loves religion but he fears Christ.  Many nations have a sense of God, but the god they worship is distant and aloof. When I study African traditional religions I see such a god , one who operates through lesser gods to do the daily tasks. This is not the God of the Bible, our God is accessible because Jesus tore down the veil.  Sometimes I find with Africans and also with the Irish that there can be a mixture of good teaching and bad teaching.

But praise be to Jesus He sent the Holy Spirit so that we can be lead into truth, and the truth will set us free. I think also that especially in Pentecostal circles we need to be very clear as to what is properly of the Holy Spirit and what is old traditional religious mumbo jumbo.

So yes I find that some Africans are too religious but those who have found Christ are free from such bondage. 

What has happened to Christianity in Europe, such that the youths shun going to church?
When the church compromised with the world and began to allow sin come in then the youth saw to as a sham. Also when we stopped teaching the truth that all men came form Adam and that there was a day when we would account for sin then the message became of no effect. If the church can go back to being the church and stand for truth and righteousness the youth will come back. Many of our churches in Pentecostal have strong youth groups.

What is your attitude to women preaching in the church?
This question always comes up. I believe that what Paul was teaching was not about whether women should preach or teach, but about authority. Many men who preach have absolutely no ability in the pulpit never mind an anointing . We must see that also preaching is a gift of prophesy if Philips daughter prophesied then they were preachers. So what was Paul saying? He was saying there is a God given line of Authority which is Christ , Man, Woman.

This is what the Bible says so we cannot change it. But does preaching make a woman outside of this? I would say that if she is clearly under the covering and blessing of her husband the she is free to preach, providing of course that she is called and gifted to do so. On the other hand I do not believe that she should lead a church or be head of a ministry, but be under an authority of her husband or a pastor. This is to ensure that all things are done in order.

She will play a full role but she will be protected by God provision. This is the same as a good marriage, just because my wife is under my authority does not mean that I never listen or consult her. She is my closest confidante, I would be foolish not to ask her for advice, but I am still the head. She is not second , she is not equal she just has a different role.

By way of example I love to sit under the ministry of  Pastor Teresa Conlon form Times Square Church , because she always brings a challenge to my heart, but I also know that she is fully in subjection in a godly manner to her husband Pastor Carter Conlon, as he is under the full authority of Christ. Other big name Pentecostal evangelist ladies do not carry the same spirit and therefore I believe are in grave danger of being mislead and also causing many women to be restless under authority.

In summary while I am happy for a sister to teach I think it is more scriptural for a man to be the figurehead or leader in a church, i.e the senior pastor or whatever title you use.

" God does not need our money, He needs our obedience, and if you give for any other reason it is an insult to Him. Every preacher who is teaching prosperity is feeding this greed..."

What is your attitude to the anointing?
By the anointing I take it you mean the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. I believe this to be a subsequent and separate event to salvation and I further believe that it is evidenced in the initial moment by the sign of speaking in other tongues. The Bible is clear that this is open to all believers and should be taught early in their spiritual lives as it will sustain them and enable them to overcome much of the problems they face.

Pentecost has been hijacked by the sensational manifestations over the past 15 or so years, with people seeking not the Holy Spirit but the spectacular, such as falling over, laughing and such like. None of these things are in the Bible, but every time we read in Acts about the Baptism we read that they spoke in tongues. We must get it straight Jesus sent the Holy Spirit, too lead us into truth, about our selves and about Him, and to make us His witnesses in all the world. So much emphasis is now put on being together getting ourselves blessed that we have forgotten the poor the lost and the lonely. 

I am also saddened when I hear men use the Holy Spirit as a type of badge. We who have been called to minister and who have been gifted to operate  with a word of wisdom, or knowledge or faith or healing or miracles or prophesy or discerning of spirits or tongues or interpretations, receive all these as gifts of grace and  Paul says in 1 Corinthians 12 v 12 that we are all one body. We should not therefore be describing ourselves as “ Gods man of power” or such like but be acting like humble shepherds  who love and care for the sheep.

But nevertheless I praise Jesus for the gifts He has bestowed upon me to enable me to be His minister.

Africans pray for very long hours and pray violently. What is your attitude to this?
One of the first questions a number of Africans ask when I meet them is “ When is the night Vigil”. This is not a normal part of Irish Church life, but as I explored it with them I discover a sense that if we pray a long time then we will break into God presence. This is not a biblical perspective because we are told to “ Boldly come before the throne” and our entry is not by how long or how well we pray but by the Blood of Jesus.

Many Pentecostal people fall into the error of thinking that the more noise we make the more God will move. This always reminds me of the story of Elijah on mount Carmel. The priests of Baal shouted and screamed and even cut themselves as they took turns to dance on the altar. Doesn't that remind you of what we see so often today, so many so called men of God shouting and displaying their own fleshly strength.

But watch Elijah, he just waits, then he begins to put the altar “ in order” so that it matches what God has ordained, this is a picture of a man of God bringing order to his own life and the life of the people. Then he pours on the thing which was most precious during the long period of no rain , water, seven barrels, displaying total surrender and dependence on God. The water also symbolizes the Holy Spirit. Then he simply lifts his voice to God and asks Him to show Himself and the fire fell from heaven.

 It is also worth noting that the Bible says if we agree together, how can I agree if I am so busy shouting I do not hear what you are praying.

But we also celebrate and shout hallelujah because we love Him knowing that as the Bible says “ His ear is ever open to our cry”.

Have you ever visited Africa ? If not will you?
As I said earlier I have been to Africa on holidays but not to minister. I believe the Lord will bring me there some day soon. I have a deep love for the African people and will do all I can to lead them to the truth and away from gospels which feed them lies.

* This interview with Pastor Paul Carley was conducted by Bola Adewara on the internet.