In this interview, Pastor T. B Joshua speaks on himself, his miracles and why people attribute his power to the devil.

Being the pastor-in-charge of a large church like this, how has it been? Because the job seems to be very enormous, how has it been with you? Church is a body of Christ and since it's a body of Christ, Christ is the head. I am just a servant. How can a servant now complain? (Laughter) You don't need to complain. I just hear go and I go and it's pure grace of God, its undeserved blessing. I didn't deserve that but God through his mercy decided to choose me. So, he chooses the grace rather than work and it is not work of righteousness, it is not the work which we have done that qualifies us to be pastors. It's pure grace, and grace is the opposite of merit.

But, there seems to be more white people in your church than black people?
That is what the Bible says. The Bible says, "a prophet has no honour" - to confirm that the Holy Bible is real. A prophet has no honour, so that is what is reflecting now. That is why more people throng this place-foreign people. I'm a Nigerian. If non-Nigerians can accept me, what can we say about what the Bible says?

What the Bible says is that 'a prophet has no honour in his home', therefore if Nigerians accept me the way the white people have accepted me, it means that the scripture would be broken. It confirms what the Bible says which is true (to show) that the word is the same yesterday, today and forever. So that is what is happening.

A lot of people are always talking about your power, your source of power; they are always saying negative things about you. What has given them this impression? You know people always fight what they don't understand. That is the philosophy of life that people fight what they don't understand, that people find it difficult to accept what they don't understand. So, when you don't understand something, you don't need to fight it, it is either you accept it or reject it. And when you reject it, you don't need to say it's not good! It's not good! It is 'I'm not interested', keep quiet and you face your business or 'I'm interested'.

That is thing people understand. But people think, 'we don't understand, we find it difficult to accept it', and at the same time we fight it, because we believe that, may be, it could be of good to us or of bad. Because we find it difficult to accept what we don't understand. It's the philosophy of Nigerians to say that we don't want the followers to be greater than us.

Even when you work, where you're working before, I'm telling you, your boss will want you to remain where you are, to continue serving him. He would love to choose his own son, his own daughter to be the owner of the company rather than promote you. So this is just the philosophy. Therefore, if a man of God is doing something that is difficult, people can not understand because they feel.. it is the Western world, they are the people that brought the religion to us. The Bible you are carrying today, they are the... Look at the name and all others, ok?

If they now come here, if people of Israel come here to say these are things of Jesus, I think something is happening. I think what is really happening is this inferiority and superiority complex. And we should accept that it's what the Bible says. Because if your strength comes from Christ and your life comes from Christ, I think you should experience what He experienced. He experienced the same thing, people reject Him.

Today, Jesus did not actually come to Nigeria physically during His earthly ministry, He was not here, but His message went everywhere. We even accept Him here more than in Israel. If you enter Israel today, hardly can you see people that really believe. I mean people accept Moses, they believe in Moses than Jesus Christ. But here, we so much believe in Him. That is just a message that he came here. But where he laboured, and was moving around, doing his earthly ministry they could not accept him the way we accept him here.

I'm particularly worried more even as you just explained, because the people who are really against you are not ordinary people, that they should not understand. I mean if you have very well known pastors of several years of ministry, they should have some understanding, why people are misled or why people are led right? They say these things about you because, I suppose, they have some kind of authority, because they are known to be ministers of God. Why is it that they still find you difficult to deal with, for instance you are not even a member of Christian Association of Nigeria. (CAN)
I'm a member, I am a patron. But anything that is of Christ Jesus, since I'm of Christ Jesus, whether its CAN or whatever, they are all under the umbrella of Jesus Christ. When you say some people and so on and so forth. The people that were against Jesus, they were learned people. They were Pharisees. It is still the same scripture that is really coming to pass. So we cannot rule it out.

Did you at anytime compare yourself with Jesus?
How can I compare myself with Jesus? When you're talking to me, can you talk to Jesus like this?

"...That is the philosophy of life that people fight what they don't understand, that people find it difficult to accept what they don't understand. So, when you don't understand something, you don't need to fight it, it is either you accept it or reject it..."

Pastor, I want to ask you, when you heal people…
When Jesus heals people…

When Jesus uses you to heal people, I have seen you a lot of times in videos, but I have seen you once practically doing it, and it was very dramatic and all. Someone just told me that, why don't you say, in the name of Jesus, it is seen in the Bible, and as others say. Why do you just act as if you are teaching exorcising or something?
Ok, the others say in the name of Jesus and the one that is in you knows Jesus came into our heart. When we accept him, we will have the very presence of Jesus in our heart, not in our mouth. When I say Jesus, I want you to hear Jesus. But if I have a personal prayer with you, I don't need to, Jesus is in our heart, straight in our heart. Therefore, no one can say Jesus without the help of the Holy Spirit. And the Holy Spirit we are talking about, we cannot see; only God can see it. We can not read it, only God can read it, we can only observe its good work. When you now say Jesus and the one that meditates the name Jesus in his heart, he's having result; it's the result that matters.

It is the result that confirms the presence of God, not what you say. When you say Jesus that can not confirm that you really call the name Jesus. It is the result. When you call the name, it's the result we see. Because the Bible says to know God's presence is to know God's power. It is the result of the name, when you say Jesus, it's not that name you call that shows that you call Jesus, it's that result when you call the name. What is the result? He came to give abundant life, life in abundance, He came to save soul. If you call Jehovah without result, how can you save soul? So that is it.

You must feel very bad as a human being. With or without the Holy Spirit, when you do something genuinely for humanity, and we don't pay for it and then people castigate you that you have satanic power and all that. When you really hear all these things and read all those things we're shown some magazines calling you all sorts of names, write all sorts of things about you. How do you really feel about all these stories, for several years now?
I think what we are saying about the good work of God; really helping the good work of God. Because assuming people have been speaking good about me that would not really promote the good work of God. It is the bad, bad saying that actually led to your coming here today. (Laughter)... And it is the same bad thing people say that actually led the white people you are seeing to Nigeria. Because, some of them said Aha, Satan? They have never seen Satan before. They would have loved to see Satan.

Let us go, let's go and see Satan. Many, many things, they would say he is from Iyemoja (river goddess). The white men, that's why they came here too, because they always like to search and find out the truth, when they want to build the bridge, and they tell them Yemoja is inside the water, the white men will say let us go and see the Yemoja inside the water. So, many people call me Satan and many people will say let us go and see Satan because they have only read about Satan. But on coming here, they realise that, look, what you people called Satan is not Satan. So I think, what we are saying now is that, people called Jesus, they said Jesus was filled with the devil and Jesus paid no attention. The Bible says he stayed focused, he stayed focused and continued casting out demon, he continued healing the sick, continued praying for people; while people were calling him demon.

Recently, the Zambian President was here, President Frederick Chiluba and people are carrying all sorts of stories that it seems he was sick, he had HIV, he had diseases, that is why he came here?
If a president like President Chiluba can visit us here in his full capacity, and he did not even hide; he worshipped with us, he moved around... the whole press in Nigeria, BBC carried it, CNN carried it. They carried it, and he was bold enough to associate himself with us here, what do you think would be too big for him to say? Do you think if he has any sickness, he would be ashamed to say it? He would not be ashamed to say it, because he has done more than that. He is so bold, his boldness, I mean, he would not be ashamed to say it. He came here for salvation, the best. He himself is an evangelist, the man is an evangelist. Before, he was on a deeper side, but he was here for the deepest side of salvation.

"...The people that were against Jesus, they were learned people. They were Pharisees. It is still the same scripture that is really coming to pass..."

There was this time they told us that King Fahd of Saudi Arabia consulted you over an ailment. Is that true?
These are rumours. It is good to hear from Pastor Temitope Joshua. But you know its rumour.

It is good to ask, that is why we're asking some of these things. There are lots of wild allegations against what you have done, that we can not stop asking. I like to ask this question, that in the early '90s, you were basically almost a stack illiterate and in the early 2000's you speak reasonably good English. How did you do it? I mean, I know you are very busy, you won't have time with somebody training you and all that. I don't think it is the Holy Spirit that would be teaching you... (General laughter).
You are very funny, you see when God wants to make you, He blesses you, He will modify you. You see, Paul was a state prosecutor. You know, before you can become a state prosecutor, you must achieve some educational background. Whatever God wants to make you, He has the enablement to make you what He wants you to be. So if He has total enablement to do that, He would modify your way. If He wants you to speak German language while you are a Nigerian, He knows He has enablement to do that. So that is it, with God all things are possible.

Listening to one message you are preaching with the foreigners and this lady came, she is a Tanzanian but she came from Botswana and she was dissuaded by man from another church, that this place is a satanic place, don't enter and all that. And she had to go back and she was abused at home and she returned and now she had AIDS with her child, and it was like, now she's come for salvation, in spite of all they have said. There are many people who have been discovered and thrown away by their families because of things like that or problems that happened to them. When they get salvation here, when they get healing here, do you have any programme for them, some of them, they don't want them back home?
Yes, there is a programme. You know, Jesus fed five thousand people. Apart from healing, deliverance... you see, the work of our salvation does not end in healing, in blessing or whatever. You see, when God uses you to heal, it should not just be to heal. Go ahead and ask if there is any other assistance you can render.

All these people you see coming for healing of HIV, some of them, they have sacked them from their working .places, no job, they are homeless. We need to give them money to rent a house; we need to feed them, to make them alright before they receive their negative result because after the healing, it takes two weeks or one week. You know, somebody who is very lean, after healing you don't feel anything in your body.

You need to get yourself bulky, before you can now go to doctor. So, after this period we are to take care, feeding them, give them house and after the negative result, you yourself, by the time you see their body, they would show that negative and go back to their work. This is what God has been given me the grace. It is grace, because I will not say, I should not boast in what I'm doing for God. I should boast in what God does in my life.

So, if I'm now telling you this is what I have been doing, it will look as if I'm boasting and I should not boast because that is self righteousness. God has given us this grace and we are really enjoying, because it is a great honour and privilege. We have a thousand people that have money, that have everything but there is nothing like grace.

I first met you at Prophet Adewole's church. He did a book "The man in the Synagogue" to explain certain things. He said a lot of things about you that this man is from God, this and that. I said how did you know? But towards the latter part of his life, before he died, I discovered that, when I raised these questions, he wouldn't I say anything again. So I kept wondering, may be there was a fight between the two of you or something happened or God revealed another thing that ok, the person you have been talking about is not even this man you are seeing. What really happened?
Well, this is a bone I can not share by myself. When I say a bone I can not share... (general laughter) (Egungun te'mi ole daje) (general laughter again) I think the Holy Spirit will answer this question because with Holy Spirit all things are possible. I think you know I told you that even this morning, I was reading his books, you see I can give you the number of times I visited his ministry.

How many times?
Throughout his life, I visited there three times. Just three times.

I saw you there twice.
It is like he visited here almost twenty times. Under must, I must repay him a visit because he was an elderly man and was like a father to us that does not mean that we quarreled.

May be he just decided to be silent over what he saw about you or he had a quarrel with you?
I mean there is nothing like that, there is nothing like that ... Because I love everyone and I trust only God. So for a man that loves everyone, it is difficult for him to have quarrel. If I know that ...this thing will lead to a fight I will know how to go about it. If it is, may be, I hold your hand and I know that you're not getting easy with it, you're not ok with it, and I will withdraw. Therefore, that could not be a quarrel. Quarrel means when you exchange negative words: "Ori e", "ko ni da fun e" (you won't do well) "Kini kan, kini kan" (This and that). That is what is regarded as a quarrel.

There was this allegation by a woman that she knows the source of your power, like other allegations... (General laughter) part of the allegations was that you got your power from the East, or in Calabar and you wouldn't have a male child, that you will not be able to have a male child.
They want me to have more children (general laughter). The children I have are enough, go and tell them.

...And one of the allegations is that you have a well with yellow water in the Church?
Yellow water ke?

Yes, that you will the yellow water. And these allegations continue to come up everyday?
The more the power increases, the greater the allegations. Unless the power (reduces), if I'm just a preacher, I will not have problem. Because we have millions of preachers, how many of them do you want to talk to? It is that anointing that gives... you know Satan is the author of sins. If somebody is now removing sins, it annoys satan. But when you preach, that could not mean anything to Satan, because Satan too can preach. 'They Satanic people, they condemn Jesus. Yes, they are 419, they are criminals'.

They say, yes, Jesus is the Lord. I'm telling you, but at the end of the day you trace them, you'll know that they doing a different thing, that could not affect. Satan too can preach about Jesus, because Satan to can preach about Jesus in pretence. They would do that to money, to amass wealth. So preaching, teaching has nothing to do with Satan. Rather, it is Spirit teaching that affects Satan negatively. When I say Spirit teaching, teaching in the power of Holy Ghost. When you teach in the power of Holy Ghost while you are teaching, people get saved, people get free.

You seem to be very easy prey for Lagos journalists to make money. They ask all kinds of questions and you seem to give them money. Why do you give reporters money?
I don't give journalists money. I give every one that is in need. Every one that comes to the Synagogue.

Why?
Because I want to be a very good giver, because that is the secret of abundant blessing. If you want to be in abundance, you want to be blessed abundantly, you must be a good giver. When you're going now, I must give you, if you reject it, I'll take it and give it to those who want it.

I will reject it because I am a journalist.
It doesn't mean anything. I'm not giving you because you are a journalist, I'm giving you because I am a good giver. I don't want to know whether you are a journalist, even when President Chiluba came here I fed him free and everything he used here was free, everything free...

Did you give him money when he was going?
Till now, as I'm talking now, I never collected even ten kobo, if there's anything that is lesser than zero kobo. You know as a minister of God, if there is anything that is less than zero, it never exchanged my hand. I gave him everything as head of state. The white people too, I feed them, I accommodate them free and I pay (flight) ticket to those I know that they are 70, 80, 90 years of age because the government there caters for them.

We thought they pay to come here or something?
No, what I'm saying is those who are 70 years, their government in their country... it is not like Nigeria... when you are 70 years old your government takes care of you.

What of when they come in?
When they come like that, I know you are 70, 90 years, so I ask what are you doing. He says he has retired. You're not doing anything; it is government that takes care of you. After the healing, those who have deadly diseases among them, I know they have nothing to lose, government can cater for them, I pay their tickets (fare). But those who are healthy, those who are matured, those who have everything. But those who their governments are taking care of, they are liability to their governments. Therefore, they too may have something they want to buy but they can not ask government to give them money. Government only feed them and clothe them. But they can not demand more. People like that, I pay them.

So you can imagine, thousands of naira spent on this. It is a new thing to the white people because they have never ever in their lives... some of them will say this is the first time they receive things from black man. They say this is the first time a Blackman is giving to them, they are the ones giving to blacks, so when I say I'm giving you... and I don't have bank account, so if I don't have bank account, what am I using money for then, if I can not give it out.

"...I want you to know that anybody that comes to my office, whatever helps the person needs, I need to ask, do you need my money, do you need my help financially, I am ready to do it..."

I asked you...?
If I know that your paper is doing something, it's educating people for God's sake, not for materials, not to bring people down. I think you're doing the work of God. If it is what your paper does, so your problem is my problem. If I say your problem is my problem, you can imagine maybe God forbid... if I don't see your paper tomorrow, I need to send them, that they I" should go and ask what is your problem. The Bible says Jesus was hurt when others were hurt.

That reminds me, there is this thing that worries me about these black, white issue. I read your books, these your magazines, they are very, very touching and obscene. I can't give my children to look inside. You know, you could see people's sickness. But I see' only black people, naked, ­their genitals exposed, how about the white people? Is it because they don't have the same problems or there is a complex?
Their countries would not allow them to come here and expose their wounds.

Those bad cases?
Like cancer, anything that have odour. The government would not allow them to leave their soil unless you meet them there. So you can not see any cancer in white people, carrying cancer sore. In their country, they have a place where they camp those people and they should not ever see them outside because of the odour and sore.

You are notable in the area of supernatural healing, everybody, whether they say satanic or Spiritual, they know you for healing individual persons and all that. You are not known at all for corporate, national healing. Hasn't God spoken to you on anything about Nigeria with all her problems? How can you cure the cancer and the HIV of the country ( Nigeria)?
Em, let me tell you one thing about Nigeria, you have answered it all. You see, those who accept prophets receive prophets' rewards. If you accept the righteous man, you receive the righteous man's reward. That is all.

I want to know why you don't speak about Nigeria and her problems?
And I have answered.

Is it because you don't, God does not speak to you concerning corporate entity like Nigeria? Or how you can you advise the presidency, how you can advise the citizens? (Speaking to an aide) bring the Sketch (newspaper) I know, you'll just... (General laughter) let them bring the two Sketch, I will show you.

Definitely as a prophet, God would tell you some things.
Let's have the Sketch first, don't force words out of my mouth.

While we are waiting for that, I have never seen that number of television sets and wall clocks in one place at the same time. You know it gives an idea of cinema. And then I was here on Sunday for about six hours. I understand the church service started around 8-9am and this was around 8-9 in the night. The service was on for about 12 hours! Why is this cinematic effect in the service? Why do people sit down to watch about hundred people getting healed for four/five hours. Do they get impartation while others get salvation and cure?... Don't you think they will forget about the service?
When you forget yourself means you're doing God's will... so, this is just to forget ourselves. There is no way one can say take up the cross and follow Jesus without forgetting ourselves. When we forget ourselves we know what it means. So because they have forgotten themselves, that is why they are doing that.

Well, just once out of seven days it is not too bad. What about the several wall clocks? When you are sitting down, you need to watch the television, and at the same time, you need to look at the time.
You're likely going to get bored faster when you look at the time. Most churches I have seen, I see only one or two clocks... Because of the expansion, the size. So when you look at the time, you need to go for break, you go for break. Every individual has their period and time they have break. The church will not say go for break. Because, they are from various places. The white people are there, they have their own time to go for break. We should not impose anytime on them. So, when you look at your time, you know, I need to go for break. You can leave there and go to canteen and eat and come back to your seat. And then instead of looking at the healing session, we transmit everything on television; it is easier for you to watch live. So everybody can not go to the canteen. If you go at the same point, you will not be able to have a seat. So I think that is why we are having television sets.

Your service must be very, very different...
Different in what way?

In the regular service, they sing, pray, then preach, then pay tithes... because you say they can go on break, go and eat, come back know…
No, No, if you wish. What you are saying is nothing. You can sit without eating. Because when you are inspired with the message of God, when you know you need to be delivered from your past, and you know you have done a lot of things in the past. The issue of break will not appear. This is how many years now? March 28 1999 (now, showing the Sketch).

Usually, we cannot really pin-point someone that is the next to you in hierarchy in this church, who is the next pastor to you?
But that day you saw almost three people praying for people.

That is…
And you saw white people praying for people.

When it comes to administrative level, because you can't do everything, we can not really point to one person, why is this so?
But you see me doing it now? It is the result we are seeing now that is making people shout, where God is in control, everything should be divine.

We see you doing the administrative work alone...
Are you not seeing the result, you're seeing now what is making people shout. I think when God...

So, there's nothing like administrative…
We call it spirit administration

Ok.
Spirit administration is not education.

Okay, the David fighting you... there was one David that claimed that he was your vice then. Have you resolved the case?
I don't know David.

David Uzi!
I don't know him.

But you said…
I don't know him. There are many people that claim to be my vice. How can you be a vice of somebody you say is satan or somebody you believe is a satan. He says he is a demon and you are now saying you are the vice of the demon (general laughter)

That is true…
You say what

He says that's true... (laughter)
Abi (yes!) Now I feel you are not good and I speak out against you, I should not establish any association (with you). So it means you're saying somebody is bad… We have many members here, we have thousands of people here. Everybody is, I mean they just put everybody, because we want somebody to be there; that is why we put people there.

Part of my question has to do with that prophecy thing, in line with what he's talking about… There is a succession plan even in the things of the spiritual, we have the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit?
What do you understand about the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit? ­

The holy trinity, there's a division of labour. God releases the word, the son activates the word and the Holy Spirit executes it. There are some levels of administration, diversities of administration.
The administration the Bible talked about is spiritual, not of carnality, because to be carnally minded is death and sin. The Bible is talking about spirit administration, not the administration we are seeing. Administration that we administer in the power for the Holy Spirit.

What do you mean by Holy Spirit administration?
Holy Spirit administration is administration that Holy Spirit is in control of. And we should do it as Christ would have done it. And there is no college for it, no school for it, but the administration many people wanted to do is the one they studied...

Is it business administration?
(General laughter) you have answered your question.

Do you have problems with women because I wonder you are good-looking and seem to possess a supernatural power that others don't have, and you are generous. All these attract women.
(Laughter) Well, to me personally, I love everyone, and once I love everyone, if anybody has any selfish love, material love or classic love towards me, God will continue to save the person. My love for everyone is for salvation.

I saw (Daniel) Amokachie, Nigerian soccer star here a few minutes ago. Does he have any problem?
He doesn't have any problem. If you know Amokachie before, this is the way he walks (limped to demonstrate how Amokachie's fitness). He promised that if he is healed, he will be coming here once in two months or twice to worship with his Christian brothers, that's all. It is only you Nigerians that do not believe that all things are possible, if you believe. He is there for you, he is ready to play for Nigeria, but they still believe that, is it possible for that kind of cure (healing) to be total? A man that they know. This is the way he walks (he limped again) is it possible that he can be healed? Don't let us bother about him, so they don't believe it.

You must be investing so much money in media packaging: video production, super quality coloured magazine, so on and so forth, what is the attraction? Why do you spend so much on this?
Because I have no other mission. My mission is to save souls and God goes for the best. I know you must really like the quality, but for one reason or the other... The foreigners that come here, the first magazine we had, when you gave them, because it had low quality, they dropped it at the International Airport (on their way out) when you enter South Africa today, you cannot see a magazine like this (holding a Nigerian news magazine). If you see it, it may be in the office, because they don't believe in this. So, we need to meet the international standard because of the demand and request of these people.

Have you ever come across an ailment or a spirit you had to run away from?
Why?

When you do your healing, may be there could be a spirit that scare you and you have to go and recharge or something?
I am not the healer. If I am the healer, what you are saying could happen but since I am not the healer, Jesus is the healer, and all we have read about Jesus, there was none that he had to withdraw from.

Culled from The New Treasure.

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