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Rev. Abraham Sam Aiyedogbon started his ministry, in Katsina State, in the late 1980, with his wife, Grace. They started as roving evangelists, preaching Christ to all corners of northern Nigeria . In 1990, after receiving a call, they established the Chapel (Realm) of Glory International Churches in Isolo. Aiyedogbon is critical of modern day evangelism, which he considered rather compromised. In that wise, he never spared the Pentecostal Fellowship of Nigeria (PFN) for what he considered its responsibilty.

 
A member of Every Nation Family of Churches, an international group of Christians that exists in about 50 countries, he told DICKSON ADEYANJU, what is wrong with PFN, his ministry and his relationship with Pastor Tunde Bakare, amongst others. Excerpts:

Why do you often attack the Pentecostal body in your column, even as you are supposed to be one of them?
Well, a lot of people misconstrue my weekly column in Thisday, but I believe those who follow it closely will realise that it is a constructive engagement. Because, to a large extent, the Pentecostal fold is one of the mainstream Christian movements where there seems to be not enough structure and room for accountability. In that fold, so to say, anything goes and anyone can rise up, say anything and do things the way he or she likes. In many cases, caution is thrown to the wind.

For me, I have a personal experience with God, where I was seriously warned against those things. Some of those things they do, do not glorify the name of our Lord Jesus and cannot promote good, Christian values in the society. What some of those Pentecostal leaders engage in do not promote the name of Jesus Christ. I have received a divine direction and inspiration to address these ills.

So, what I try to do is to attempt to raise the standard by drawing the attention of the leaders to this fact, because our God is a God of light and not of darkness. Light and darkness cannot be together and as Christians, the light of God must be seen in us every time. When people ask 'ah, why are you washing this dirty linen in the public?' My response is that the dirt was done in the public, so, there is no problem if we clean it up in the public as well.

Will you say that the PFN has failed in this direction?
I will not say PFN has failed, neither will I say that it has succeeded, because I think the body has not got its bearing as to what should be its role and how to go about it. Basic questions as to what should really be the role of PFN in church formation, doctrine, and what should be the standards of those in leadership. These questions are not yet answered with what the leaders are doing. So, there are lots of things; and except these issues are radically addressed, as far as I'm concerned, I will still hold the belief that the body is yet to get its bearings right, not serving the purpose it is supposed to serve in regulating the conducts of its members. Maybe they need more courage to allow people who see things differently to be able to address these things, because in a situation where you think some people are just going to flatter you when they come in or that they are going to be too blunt, you will not listen to them. The Bible says it is only the truth that can set one free.

The problem with the organisation also is that, sometimes, there is a struggle as to what role it should play. Is it going to be another political front?

So, in this direction, we have had situations where some PFN leaders almost sold out, even to politicians. Some of them have even been hired to be praise singers of these politicians and when this happens, certainly you will neglect the spiritual and moral responsibility that you should maintain, to make sure that things go well within the fold.

I haven't seen PFN play the role of a spiritual body that holds the members accountable. I haven't seen PFN with leaders that are selfless, that we can really say, these men and women are not for sale. To me, it has been 'ah, let us come together, so that they will know that we are here.'

Unfortunately, this has been the situation and most unfortunate for some of them, they don't even understand the political terrain and their negotiations have been to their disadvantage. Its either they queue up behind a candidate that has no chance of becoming anything. We have seen that played out and they don't seek the opinion of those who understand the political terrain. So, basically, maybe it is a case of PFN trying to function in an area where the leaders are not well equipped and neglecting the area where their attention is essentially needed or required.

So, have they succeeded or failed? I cannot give them a mark because I don't know what they do. However, if they have adhered to what they ought to be doing, for instance, one of the aims of the body is to promote unity among Pentecostal churches and to a large extent, there is no unity among them. One of the indices you will use to measure that is this: when PFN tried to bring everybody together, say in the stadium, it becomes a problem to fill the stadium. But one of these individual churches will fill it when they are doing their own programmes. So, there is no sincerity. That is what it translates to. This shows how strong and how successful PFN is, if they are really promoting unity. In the last elections, there were attempts to say, at least to the best of my knowledge, to adopt a candidate, especially in Lagos State and line up behind the candidate. But after the election, go and check the vote that candidate scored. I said to myself, is this all that PFN can muster? It is pretty bad. If we are really united, it would certainly be different. The whole thing is just individual effort. I think I will leave others to judge whether the body is succeeding or not. But I think there is still a lot to be done within the fold.


 

You have this monthly programme for the youths. What informs it and how far has it succeeded?
The youth programme has been a revolution and that is the only way I can describe it. From the inception of the church in 1990 here in Lagos , we've always tried to have a special place for the youth and we started by calling them the firebrand, because we know that they are full of energy. We have different groups in the church such as the married men, married women, youth and others. But some couple of years ago, the Lord began to open our understanding to realise that if the youth are the messages we are sending to the future, if they are the future leaders, why should we sideline them in the church? Why can't we make them our priority in the church? So we realised that we cannot just put them aside and leave them at that level. So we brought this youth programme and made it the priority, the main focus for the church. It is a paradigm, we change their perspective, we change their mentality and their attitude and we realise that the youths, from 13 to about 30 years, are the ones doing everything that is happening in the world today, whether positive or negative. In the world of entertainment, music, sport and in many other disciplines, they are the active players. What the elders do is just to coach them.

So, we began to realise that the church should not be left out. I must say to you that this is one of the most successful decisions we have taken. The youth are like a nation within a nation. They have their own culture, language, dressing and music. You have to study this and adapt to it and not force them to change their culture. You then release the gospel into that culture. This is one of the reasons why some churches, particularly in the western world, are increasingly losing their youths and it's only the elderly ones you can find in the churches in Europe these days. So, what we do during this programme is to open the church for them and allow them to come and fully express themselves and in the process, you put or inculcate the value of Christ into them. That has been a huge success for us here.

Every week, we have a special youth service. This comes up every Tuesday, during which they have their own time together in the evenings. This is exclusively to them although very rowdy, noisy, but we are getting them for Christ. Then every month, we have what is called the Hero's Sunday. They take over all the aspects of the service that Sunday. They do the talking, they have their choir, they do their dancing. It is exciting and interesting and at the end of it, we bring a celebrity, a role model in the society. Such a celebrity could be from politics - as we had Dr. Tunji Braithwaite during the last programme - from governance, entertainment, sports and so on as a role model for them. This person will be interviewed by the youths. He or she will give them hope, point the way forward to them. So, the programme has been a huge success for us, although it is demanding and expensive, but we owe our youth whatever can develop them in Christ and at whatever cost to us. It is a worthy investment.

If you don't invest in the youth, you don't have a future. If our present leaders were affected by programmes like this, if they had the right values as youths, if they were modelled in a way to fear God, maybe we would not be where we are today.

You have said that Pastor Bakare is your role model. What attracts him to you?
Pastor Tunde Bakare, to me, is a man of God that still needs to be discovered and understood by the majority of the people in this nation. Apart from seeing him on television, perhaps, only very few people know him. In relating closely with him, I develop a saying that proximity brings clarity. The closer you get, the clearer you see. One of the things that impresses me about him is that, when you get close to him, you discover a real human being; you discover what is called real integrity that no amount of money or anything can purchase. In him, you will discover sacrificial commitment and faithfulness to relationship. From a human point of observation, I watched him for years and I got closer to him and discovered these rare traits in him. Much more than this, I believe that there is a divine ordination for our connection. Our destinies are intertwined. For me, he is a source of inspiration. The more I know him, the more I appreciate him. I know him by revelation. We travel together. I know what most people don't know about him.

Some of his prophecies, particularly concerning former President Olusegun Obasanjo, were baffling. He also said we wouldn't have this new government until October, this year. What can you say of these since you know him that closely?

One of the interesting things about him is that, when you are in doubt about anything he says, ask questions. Even to his congregation, he encourages them to ask him questions if they at loss over anything he says or do. So, when it comes to the issue of prophecy, the first thing people need to understand is the nature of prophecy and the purpose of prophecy.

The nature of prophecy is so complex that it is not just two plus two equals to four. For instance, there are prophecies in the Bible, that have not been fulfilled till today. They have lasted for thousands of years. That does not make the prophets that gave those prophecies to be fake. There are prophecies in the Bible that those who gave them do not even understand them. So, the nature of prophecy is complex and not as simple and many people would want to say or that if a prophecy is given today and it does not come to pass tomorrow, it has become invalid or the person who gave the prophecy is a fake one. That is far from the truth.

Most of the time, God can use the prophets to raise an alarm. Like Jonah went to Nineveh and said in three days, the people would be wiped out. That prophecy drove them with fear to repent. The Bible says that even their dogs fasted!

When Pastor Bakare began to prophesy about the past Obasanjo administration, that was one voice that caused trembling. That prophecy kept Obasanjo on his toes and people rallied round to pray for him and so on. Bakare did not say surely this prophecy must come to pass. He simply said the mind of God, as revealed to him and he cannot tamper with such a revelation. His own was to say it and his duty stops at that. If such a prophecy comes and people repent, even God will have mercy and take his anger away.

I certainly do not have problem with Pastor Bakare and his prophecies. He is a man of God with enormous integrity and sincerity.

Considering our situation in this country, can a Christian go into politics and still come out the same person?
My brother, this is the one million dollar question. Yes, with God, all things are possible. But for man, it may look impossible. For a Christian to go into politics and come back with his integrity intact, we have to start with the foundation, that is, his spiritual foundation and spiritual orientation. How rooted is he in the things of God? To what extent does he carry the fear of God with him? How separated is he from the system? Jesus said, you are the salt of the earth. A salt that is applied to where there is decadence, it will clear the rot in the system. It will prevent corruption. The question is, what is the motivation for going into politics? Unfortunately, a lot of people hastily jump into politics without understanding the terrain. A lot of people are na?ve about it.

You hear a pastor or a Christian saying 'God says I'm going to be governor. I'm going to be President'. But ask what is their pedigree? Where have they been tested? How much of the situation do they understand? So, many Christians that go into politics in the name of God do not even understand it. Also, they don't understand the principle of the life of Christ. Christ started from the scratch. Despite the prediction that government would be upon his soldier, Christ started from the beginning. He did not just rise and say, today, I'm becoming President. Despite these limitations, Christians should and must be involved in politics because God is involved. How do we start? How do we get involved? These are the questions we must first answer.

Some of your members will be going to Manila , Philippines next month. Is that the new Jerusalem?
Ah, far from being. When people say they go on pilgrimage, that adds nothing to your rating before God. God is no more present anywhere than where you are. You can have your Jerusalem anywhere you are. So, what is happening is that, we have many of our people going for a conference in Manila . Our church is part of a global body called Every Nation Family of Churches. It is an amalgamation of gospel ministries from about 50 countries of the world. We come together once in three years for interactions and celebrations. This conference is one of them. As many of our people that can go, we are encouraging them to go. That is what is happening in Manila in Philippines in July. It would be an opportunity for us to showcase the richness of our culture. We will do our own indigenous way of praising God in dancing and singing.

What is this organisation about?
It is made up of about 500 churches world-wide and the things that bind us together are the core Christian values, that we share. Every nation must be reached with the gospel of Christ and be transformed by the message of hope that Christ preached. Our mission is to do evangelism, grass-root evangelism, church planting, youth ministry, cross-cultural mission and so on. These are the things we do and promote. In the organisation, you must believe in the Lordship of Jesus before you can be part of it. Also, we are deeply involved in discipleship for Christ, people who give their lives to Christ must be taught the ways of Christ. It is not just enough to raise your hands up and say you have received Christ into your life. You must be discipled for him. We also train people to be leaders in all aspects of life. I'm privileged to be one of the leaders in that body.

Are you attracted to this body because of the foreign funds, like some churches do?
This is a valid question and I'm happy you asked me that. Yes, what is there for us? You see, when people see that you are connected to a foreign body or an international agency and you are deeply involved for that matter, they believe it translates to dollars. But we believe in the wealth of value rather than the value of wealth. Our joining this body was not motivated by any material consideration. As a matter of fact, there has never been any financial support from them to this church, because we didn't join because we are financially incapable. We are well established, well consolidated. This auditorium was build and fully paid for by our people here. So, we are not there for any financial gain. You cannot be beggarly and be authoritative. Rather, we spent to ensure our dreams and goals are fulfilled in that body. That is why we are well respected there.


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