Professor Dapo Asaju is a professor of religion at the Lagos State University, Nigeria. In this interview, he bares his mind on the Church of God in Nigeria. He also talked on his experience in ministry and how he has been able to surmount the challenges that came his way. Below are excerpts from an interview conducted by Gbenga Osinaike, publisher of Church Times.

Can we have a peep into your background?
I'm from Iyara Ejuwon in Kogi State and I come from a royal family. My grandfather was the Olugbede of Igbede. His own father was an Oba. My father used to be a journalist. He was the chairman of the Nigeria Union of Journalist. He was also an oba. But for my calling as a man of God I would have been talking as an oba by now

But were you approached to become an oba?
I was actually approached and I turned it down. By then I was already a priest. But I wouldn't have accepted it if I wasn't a priest because I am not cut out of a thing like that

And nobody would have been able to force you?
Nobody can force me to do things against my wish. I declined the offer and I held to my conviction. It is really difficult to force me to do things I did not set out to do. Behind the softness of heart and the Christian garment, God has enabled me to have a disciplined approach to life.

But who is Professor Asaju in the real sense of it?
I'm many things, in many ways to many people. I'm a father, an activist, a biblical scholar in both Greek and Hebrew languages. I have been teaching for 23 years at the Lagos State University . I'm a visiting professor to the Birmingham Christian College , University of Wales in UK . I hold a special certificate at the Birmingham Centre for Communion Studies. I just completed a Dip in Theology at the Vining Seminary, Akure. Presently, I'm a professor of Christian Study and Director of General Studies in the university. I'm a visiting professor to the University of Birmingham , Consulting professor to several universities. I'm external examiner to University of Ibadan , Ogun, OAU. I'm to the glory one of a leading theologian in the country.

You are just 47. How have you been able to cope with all these endeavours?
The average man is many things to many people. But I must confess that God has been good to me right from my university days. I was lecturing at the University of Ilorin before I came to Lagos . But before then, I had delivered the first and only University of Ilorin Alumin lecture which was meant to showcase the quality of their product in 1985. I started LASU with them in 1984 and I have Acting Dean and currently a member of the Governing Council of the university. I was chairman of the ASUU in 1988 and led the country on a lot of reforms, which are now being enjoyed in the universities. I have also worked with pro-democracy activists. But above all, I thing God has been keeping me and enabling me to be effective in all these areas. What I do are not what anybody can do with his own strength. It is God that enables.

You said you are an activist. How do you keep your head among pro-democracy activists?
I have not found it difficult to keep my head because theology is the queen of all sciences. It has within it every discipline. There is history, philosophy, law, engineering and many other disciplines in theology. So, when you deal with different kinds of people you are dealing with them on a familiar terrain becomes easy. After theology comes philosophy, law. The lawyers call themselves the learned friend, but the theologian is the educated person because every discipline is subsumed in theology. Palestinians have been fighting the Israelites, It is the same Philistines who fought David and Saul in the bible days. There is medicine in the theology because God is the ultimate healer. When doctors fail they come to God. People are talking about aircraft today. But aircraft has been predicted long ago in the bible. The bible talks about the children of Israel being carried on an eagle wing to their land after they have been gathered from all corners of the world. The eagle wing is the aircraft.

There is architecture in the bible. Go and read the account of the Noah and the ark and how God instructed him to build the ark. There are so many examples in the bible that shows that theology is the queen of all sciences. Theology deals with the spirit soul and body but every other discipline deals with the physical nature of man.

But how did you come about the course in the first place. We know it was not fashionable to read a course like CRS. People see it as not being lucrative compared with law and medicine?
I had wanted to be a lawyer like any other person. But I didn't get admission to the University of Ife when I applied. I stayed at home and became my daddy's driver. I applied again the following year and I did not get the admission and I was taken to come and read religious studies at the University of Ilorin . And I didn't want to go. But my father now asked if I wanted to be his driver for another one year. That was how I decided to take the course. And I thank God I did.

And you never thought of changing the course?
To me it was not necessary. Doing the course was like I had just encountered light. It is not what you read that determines who you become but what you make of what you read. Today I'm at par with anybody in other professions. When you suddenly encounter what interests you, you will feel fulfilled within yourself. Moreover there is no job that can be as rewarding and pleasant as the work of God. In working for God, you deal with different kinds of people in the society. The more you read the bible, philosophy and theology, the more you have an understanding of the one who owns life and the more you get in touch with the essence of life. And that is God. Reading religion will open your eyes to the total man. It makes you have an understanding of who we are, where we are going to and where we are going to spend eternity.

I have always been encouraged by the theology of John Calvin who tried to Christianize society and he was able to lay the foundation we are enjoying today. Martin Luther jnr was able to liberate the world using the human rights policies in the book of Amos, he was able to fight for the rights of the blacks. Whatever rights the average black American is enjoying today is traceable to him. Most of the developments you see today around the world all started from the Church. When there was a fight for the independence of the Church, theologians started it by using an ideology called Ethiopianism. This is a concept that says civilization started from Africa . The Garden of Eden is believed is connected to Africa according to Gen 4. In the bible the blacks were very important. Moses married a black woman, an Ethiopian. Simon Cyrene who carried the cross of Jesus was a black man. St. Augustine was an African. Africans Christianised the West before they came to us in mission. The New Testament was canonized in 397 AD in Carthage . St. Anthony, Iraneon and Artenatious were all blacks. So, Christianity is more indigenous to the black man than the white.

So what happened?
When Christianity came to Africa through the Ethiopian Eunuch and the queen of Shebang connection, the slave trade decimated Africa 's integrity and right. Christianity thrives better in times of Crisis. When Christianity becomes comfortable, it goes down. We had a situation during which Christianity was doing well under persecution then there was an emperor called Constantine the great. He liberated Christianity from the Roman persecution because of misgivings about paganism. He amalgamated the Church by giving them freedom. But not long after that the Church stared arguing about doctrine. There was a heresy called Monetarism. He was a priest of the pagan religion in North Africa before he became converted. When he came to Christianity he found out it was too cold and uninspiring. But before he was converted, he used to get caught up in a frenzy during his worship of the pagan god. So, when he came to Church, he decided to make the Church charismatic. Because of his heresy, the synod decided to legislate that the gift of the Holy Spirit had ended with the early Church. That was the origin of that policy. Prophecies were not allowed in the Church. That was how the Catholic Church and the Anglican Church got it wrong. Instead of dealing with the problem when it happened, they decided to place a complete ban on the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

I have pictures of Bishops in Europe in the Anglican Church who do immersion. But here some people say it must be sprinkling. We are entertaining a lot of carry-overs that are dead. In order to deal with an error we must not create another error. But the point is that the bible is the arbiter of Christians. If you look at the 39 article of faith of the Anglican, baptism by immersion is allowed, speaking in tongue is allowed. But up till today some people will say we cannot do some of these things. And what we have avoided the Pentecostals have hammered on it and that has been their focal point. And they are making a mistake too because they are focusing too much on the gifts of the Holy Spirit at the detriment of the fruits of the Holy Spirit.

You talked about sprinkling during baptism. But we do that in Anglican and you are an Anglican priest?
Sprinkling is supported under some circumstances. Anglicanism is broad enough to accommodate everybody. The Church has always been the platform for Struggle. In Acts Chapter 2 when the Church started, the Ayatollahs of this world were present, the Libyans were present. The Church started as global institution when it started. Christianity was thriving in African. But because we are involved in one controversy or the other, Islam came and swept everybody. Morocco , Libya which were hitherto Christian domain were swept by Islam which came 600 years after Christianity had taken root. And we are having such situation in our hands today. If you are not careful, Islam will overrun this country. As it is the religion is growing more than Christianity because of the rate at which Muslims produce children. The religion encourages polygamy and its adherents procreate a lot. With that they are getting more people into their fold. But most Churches are not doing the work of evangelism they are only stealing from existing Churches. Moslems are not converting either but they are growing because of the culture of procreation that is entrenched in the religion. But the Church is not evangelising. What we have are nomadic Christians. We keep moving from one Church to the other. People move from Deeper Life to MFM from MFM to Redeem from there to Christ Embassy. We are not reaching out to the heathen. We are not making impact. If we are making impact, Bakassi will not be the hope of the ordinary man in the East, OPC will not be the hope of the ordinary man in the west. The Church has turned to a supermarket where everybody comes and picks what he wants. Some go to Winners Chapel for prosperity message. Some go MFM for deliverance some go the Redeem for healing. There is no holistic approach to the things of the kingdom.

So what do you think the Church should do?
I think the Church must go on rapid evangelism and mission. We must work on souls. We are not converting, we should start to work on souls and not just that, we should ensure that people are grounded in the work so that they are not carried away by every wind of doctrine.

There a lot of people who read religion who don't have this kind of thinking. How did you arrive at this thinking?
What has helped me is that I engage in radical thinking. I try not to mess myself up. I have been teaching in the university for 24 years now and I thank God that I have not messed myself up with women even when they come tempting me. God has helped me to say no to temptation. God has given me grace. I don't go to parties. I'm a vegetarian. I last ate meat in 1989.

But that is suppose to be the practice of those who subscribe to oriental religions like Buddhism?
It is biblical. When God created man he gave man what he should eat. He only permitted us to eat meat under his permissive will. The way our teeth, intestine and metabolic system are structured is such that encourages vegetarian diet. The ideal food for man is herb. Now, there is a lot of campaign against red meat and the junk foods that we eat. Some of the animals we eat don't go to the hospital except for sophisticated ones that have been opened to the contamination that we get ourselves into. The Buddhist and those who practice these oriental religions you are talking about know the truth about diet and they are using that to get membership. The fact that they do it does not stop us from going to the bible to find out the kind of food that we should eat. Daniel in the bible refused to pollute himself with the portion of the king's meat. He ate vegetable and he was better off. Vegetable diet digests easily in the system. The mineral we drink and many other items we consume are poisonous to our system. We poison ourselves in the name of trying to satisfy our taste. This should not be.

Let's talk about your wife?
I met my wife in Ilorin and we dated for five years. I proposed to her when I was in Ilorin . She read CRS and also did a masters programme in Library Science. She has since gone back to read law. She said she wanted to fulfill her childhood ambition.

But you didn't face the temptation of reading law after your studies in CRS?
I'm not bent on law because I have encountered a superior knowledge.

In the real sense of it, why is it that your approach to CRS is different to that of many of your colleagues?
It is a gift. When you encounter Church history, you will get motivated and have passion for public life. And I have not started. I know I have a big role to play in the political future of this country. As it is we have no leaders. Since Awolowo, Zik a and Ahmadu Bello died, we have not been able to get a leader that will lead us in this nation. We only have people who put their portraits around. Babangida corrupted leadership in this country to make way for Lilliputians. If we have leaders people will follow naturally. That is the gap I want to fill.

How?
I'm trusting God that I will rule this country one day

Is that not a bogus ambition?
I will rule by the grace of God when the time comes. It will only take some years of planning. I have found out that religion is a secondary sentiment for the masses. They are interested in good leadership irrespective of the religion the person is practicing. Nigerians are ready for people who are ready to serve and impact their lives. When there are no leaders, people are being tossed from place to the other.

So you think Obasanjo is not leading well?
He has forgotten his prison days. He doesn't have the credentials to change Nigeria . He has good intention, but he is being drowned by forces around him. He came with the Christian sentiment, but he has lost it all. Under him over 1000 Christians were slaughtered in the North. He did not defend his constituency.

But what do you think he could have done?
As the Commander in Chief, I don't need to tell you what he could have done. He allowed Christians to be killed any how and nobody has been prosecuted. He was playing politics with the lives of believers in the North. He has not defended Christians since he came to power.

If you are to rate him?
I think he has just filled the vacuum of leadership. He has done his beat. He should be commended for his stance on anti-corruption and a few other things and innovation here and there. But with the immense natural disposal at this disposal, he has performed below expectation. He has not guaranteed the security of the lives of the people in Nigeria . The unemployment rate has shot up, there are no good hospitals no good road and the whole Nigerian state is not having a feel of good governance.

So what is your idea of a good leader?
There is the need for somebody with a heart of steel who can rise above women, money and do what is right for the people. It may take some time, but we will get there. We talk about debt relief but who were the people who borrowed the money? Why have they not been brought to book? What the society needs is proper awareness. If they are well carried along and they understand the reasons why certain things are done, they will cooperate with the leadership. It may take sometime but we will get there. I think there is the need for a reflection on how the problems of the society can be solved. But if we are delaying, one day, people will demand for change and when it comes it will be sweeping. It happened when Abacha was misruling the country. He paid for it with his life. There was so much protest and heat on him. The human rights group really did a good job in unseating him.

Talking about Abacha, don't you think it was God that took him out of the way?
You may say it was God. But I know God does not kill people in that way. If God had wanted to kill him he would have died long before he died. I think he just died. And that is what is drawing us back in this country. We so much believe in fatalism. We attribute everything to the will of God. We have had several crashes and we say it is the will of God. We have lost so many souls in this country and all we say is that it is the will of God. I think it is morally wrong to say it is the will of God when God does not approve of something. Don't say God will change things when he has given us power to change things. God is the King of Kings and the Lord of lords. He has given us power to do certain things. We should do our part and allow him to do his part. God will intervene in the affairs of man, but in intervening he will use people.

Let's go back to your constituency. Can you relate your encounters with God?
I got born again in 1974 at the Government Secondary School , Okene. I was still developing gradually when Theophilus Olabayo who married my cousin started Evangelical Church of Yahweh. I was with him in 1973. He was quite a phenomenon in the prophetic ministry. He has been received by Boutrous Boutrous Ghali, the then UN Secretary of State . He was close to Obafemi Awolowo and Babangida. At a point in my Christian journey, I attended Redeem and Deeper Life, I used to go to the Ayobo camp.

But I was born and baptised in the Anglican and I did not lose touch with my Anglican background. I was confirmed by Bishop Haruna. When I took up a lecturing job at the LASU, I was living with my cousin in Badagry and started attending Foursquare Gospel Church with him. That was where I was baptized in the Holy Ghost and I actually grew spiritually. I later went back to Redeem. I was in the branch Pastor Tunde Bakare was pasturing before he broke away and started Later Rain Assembly. I was also with Latter Rain for a couple of weeks. So, later my wife and I decided not to attend the place because the place was too far.

I then remembered when Oyedepo started in Ilorin , I was with him. So, when he came to Lagos , we decided to attend the Winners Chapel when the Church was at Raji Oba. I was really active in the Church and in fact my first two children were named in the Church. We were one of the first 50 members of the Church. In fact I would have been a bishop in the Church. But Oyedepo believes in full time ministry and I was not ready to leave my teaching job and do full time evangelical work. At a point I decided to go back to the Lagos Anglican Seminary.

I was there when I got a distress call from the Evangelical Church of Yahweh that I should come and pastor the Church. Olabayo had earlier prophesied in the Church after I went to preach there that God said he should hand over the Church to me. The whole congregation was shocked because there were a number of bishops who could take that role if he was not to be around.

So when Olabayo had stroke and it was not certain that he was going to be alive, he sent for me and asked me to take over the Church. I was in the Church as the General Overseer. I met a good Church and we tried to improve on it. When I was there God enabled us to establish about 14 branches of the Church and we were on television. The Lord used us to take the Church to other parts of the world. I had a wonderful time in the Church.

Don't you have problem with the doctrine of the Church?
No I didn't. Evangelical Church of Yahweh is a lovely Church. It is a prophetic Church. The leader, Prophet Olabayo is charismatic. Prophets are very rare and it is a ministry that is very sensitive. We tried to advise where necessary. It is unfortunate that he had the problems he had. That does not distract from the fact that he is being used by God. When I was there some of the members felt I was becoming too powerful, that I might take over the Church.

But I never had such ambition. I was just there to serve. While there I ordained over 35 ministers and there were four bishops working under me. All these were being misunderstood. So when the primate came back and he was alright I stepped aside and many people thought I was going to start my Church and take some members along. But they were wrong. I left as the General Overseer and came back to concentrate on my job in the university.

It was when I came back that Archbishop Adetiloye called me and asked that I be ordained as a deacon and I was posted to the Church of Epiphany . Six months after I was made a curate and I have since been in the Anglican Church. I think God has taken me around to expose me to the practice in many of these Churches.

But what will you say has kept you on?
I try to put myself under the control of God and also realise that you cannot become anything except it is ordained by God. My degree and the fact that I'm a professor do not mean anything to me. God has His hands on me. When I was visiting professor to the Birmingham University I became a priest under the Archbishop of Canterbury. I have with me the personal licence of the Archbishop. With that I have assess to the pulpit of any of the Anglican Churches in England , Australia and America . I have had cause to preach in a number of Churches around the world.

Now from your experience around the world, how will you assess Christianity and the way it is being practiced from across the world?
The global trend is that the centre of gravity in Christianity is in Nigeria . There was the story of a boy who was being asked to accept Jesus in one of these European countries and he said, who is Jesus, which team does he play for, is it Manchester United or Liverpool . I was in Germany when some people were advertising witchcraft over the television. Churches are now being taken over hotels and cinema houses. Christianity is closing shop in the West. We are in a situation where Africans will have to take the gospel back to the west.

Don't you fear that we may get to that state in Nigeria ?
Unfortunately, though there seems to be some evangelical efforts on our part, people are beginning to lose interest in Churches. The Church is supposed to be the alternative but the Church has joined in the class of exploiters. Churches are milking the people they are supposed to reach out to and this is unfortunate.

Have you ever been disappointed in God?
God has always been on my side. But I must say that I have gone through the experience of Job. I lost my parents within a space of two years and I felt God had abandoned me. I went on strike for month. I refused to honour preaching engagements. I refused to pray. But I had to apologized to God when I realised my folly.

But what was your grouse with God?
I felt I shouldn't have lost my mother the way it happened. She died due to the negligence of the doctors and I felt bad that God did not tell me before it happened. My mother was in one of the best hospitals in Nigeria and I was paying N10,000 everyday. But she died because they gave her wrong blood. My father became an Oba and because he was a Christian and would not compromise he was attacked spiritually and he died. I said to myself, why did God not tell me these things were going to happen so that I could take precaution? Because I used to pray for people and God used me to bring healing to them, why should my own case be different?. There was a case of a woman in same hospital where my mother died, who was in coma. I prayed for her and she came back to life six hours later. There were many other instances of healing that were wrought through me. So, I was disappointed. But no man can fight God and win.

So how did you reconcile with God?
I had to reconcile with him when I realised that God is God and man is man. Actually my sister came to me and said God had sent her to me. She said she saw my mum in heaven and asked her why she left us so soon and she said my mother told her that she just saw some angels singing and she decided to join them. And she said God told her to tell me that: was I not the one preaching to people and consoling people when they lose loved ones and now it has happened to you and you are feeling terrible. She said also that since I have been praying that my parents should make heaven? That she has to leave this world if she was going to heaven.

Did you have another striking experience similar to this?
The other thing that happened was when I lost my job at the university due to the ASUU struggle. There was a particular money that should have been paid to lecturers and the money was not being paid. We knew that the federal government had released the money. But it was kept in a fixed account by the LASU authority. That caused a problem on campus and we were mounting pressure that the money should be paid. That set us against the authority and some of us were sacked. The salary of my wife was also stopped since she works in the university. We tried to pursue the case in the court but the judge was biased. Even the obas were against us.

In the long run we were without job and I had to start driving my car as kabukabu and was making some money to keep myself and my family. At a point we decided to hand over the matter to God and we called a meeting and prayed on campus. And we told God that by the time the matter would be resolved, we don't want to meet all those who were involved in the matter on campus. And God answered. Not long after we prayed, there was a change of government in Lagos State and the VC had to go and all those who were involved ran away. As a matter of fact I was asked to write my own letter of recall. That is how God has been good to me.

What is your ambition in life?
To write more books. Already I have about 47 books to my credit and I look forward to writing more books to influence my generation. If I don't become other things I want to become, I will be satisfied. I have been building a bungalow for nine years now, I trust God to complete it. If that is done and I can retire to writing books, and doing my own bit in the kingdom of God , I will be eternally grateful to God.

What are the factors that encourage you in life?
Faith in God and hope that I will get an eternal reward for what I'm doing here on earth. The passion to improve other peoples lives also keeps me going. By the grace of God, I have helped a number of students in schools by paying their fees. That has been a tradition that I met in my house. My father was always eager to help people around.

General Tunde Idiagbon was trained by my father. He was selling newspapers for my father. It was from our house that he went to embark on a military training. When he became the Governor of Borno State, he invited my father to the state house and when he became the Chief of Staff, he couldn't look at my father in the face. That shows the kind of regard he had for him. The discipline that he brought to bear in government was what he picked from our home and I think that also robbed off on me.

How do you handle temptation?
God gives me grace to handle temptation and I'm also careful enough to know the implication of falling. I think of the people that I will disappoint when I fall into temptation and the fact that I will disappoint God who has deposited a lot in me. For that reason, I adopt a preventive measure. If you understand life and the values of life, you will not fall into temptation of women, money or power and whatever temptation for that matter.

But why do people fall easily into temptation?
They love glamour, women and money. They take God for granted and they are unnecessarily ambitious. I don't love any of those things. Some of the times I'm on molue And that does not take anything away from me. At the slightest hold-up, I pack my car and take Okada. We were trained to be disciplined in my family.

It is a gift that God has bestowed on the family. Men have fallen, but God has not allowed me to fall. If you want to make a statement for your generation, you must stand up as a role model. There was a Joseph who fled, if he had compromised with Potiphars wife, he wouldn't be what he became. Esau sold his birthright because of food and messed up his destiny. The Lord has been helping me to stay away from things that will bring disgrace to his kingdom.

I was the chairman of the task force on the establishment of the engineering faculty of LASU. At the end of the day what should have cost N21million cost just N3,000. At the end of the day, we refunded money back to the treasury of the school.

Many people will find it difficult not to be tempted by money and women. How did you arrive at this height?
I read Martin Luther King, I read Mahatma Ghandi. I'm a student of Paul and above all a student of Jesus Christ. These are the people that have shaped my life and philosophy. And of course the Lord has continued to give me grace to hold on to the truth. The problem we have is that we don't read history. We don't know Africa history. Before the Europeans came, we had our value system and philosophy. And if you have your philosophy what else do you need. If the Church plays its role in the society we will not be where we are today. But the Church is busy inflicting monetary demands on people. We don't care about the lives of the people in our custody.

You have written over 40 books and there are people who do their Phd on your works. Sometimes one is tempted to think you have achieved so much within a short period of your life?
How old was Jesus when he finished his work on earth? He was just 33. Do you know what was written about him? The last verse in the book of John says there were many things he did that whole world wouldn't have contained it if they were written.

There was a king in Israel . His name is Josiah. He was just 8 years when he ruled Israel. Jehoshaphat was seven years. Yakubu Gowon was 29 years when he ruled this country. So, age has nothing to do with achievement. And I believe the best is yet to come. I have not been able to serve the diocese of Lagos West the way I would have loved to. I have no ambition about becoming anything in the Church. But I just want to serve and influence my generation.